Quote from gu3st :

AC is also a completed program. It hasn't received any updates in nearly 5 years and there's no signs of anything coming other than a sequel in ~1 year. It also didn't ever have a real competitive online system nor any meaningful attempts to discourage cheating.

Heck, ACC at this point is more or less completed too. It's received its last update recently and all that should be expected is quarterly content dumps to fund AC2 development.

It's true. Doesn't this explain how it is legally possible to appropriate a code for personal gainful use, without an agreement with the authors?

Coming back to LFS, this game has a very special place in the gaming world. It's been part of our lives for so long, it's made us fantasize so much, that we feel like it's belongs to us. And that feeling is even stronger among those who have invested the most in this game. Each of us wants LFS to become the game he dreams of.

But LFS is not an open source game. And I think we would have nothing to gain from it. Beyond the problems this would pose to online gaming, the day authors can no longer live off their creations and protect their codes, there simply won't be any more creations as great as LFS.*

Using reverse engineering for purposes other than code optimization is not a collaborative development mode. It's a violation of the code. Publishing reverse-engineered data (even partial) is against copyright. The insim gateway is a safer way (but in my opinion much too complex) to allow certain evolutions without compromising the durability of the game.

* I'm always fascinated to find that skin authors often (not all) have more demands of respect for their creations (usually copied from existing liveries) than they give to the authors of the game they're modding on

Quote from ahromenko :

Look what Ilja Jusupov aka x4fab did with Assetto Corsa, with his Content Manager and other things, not without reverse engineering ofcourse (But not without help of .pdb files which included with Assetto Corsa tho).

Reverse engineering would probably bring some awesome developments that we would all like to see with LFS. But the purpose does not justify the means used. Especially if the means used are contrary to the provisions of copyright and the will of the authors.

What Jusupov is doing looks great and it's making him money. I imagine that if Kunos lets him do it, it's because he's acting within the "legal" framework of modding on Assetto Corsa, or at least his work is "tolerated". About LFS, the position of the devs seems clear. So...

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

I don't have a strong opinion for or against reverse engineering on LFS code. But I just want to make a point for the sake of having a reasoned discussion [...] I think its good that being able to do something similar in LFS by reverse engineering.

An overall reflection on these questions seems essential and it is important not to confuse means and ends. It is interesting in this respect to consider what the law says.

Reverse engineering is just an analysis technique. But its uses are strictly regulated. Beyond what the author of a computer program authorizes, the law indirectly protects the users of this computer program.

For example, current EU law (which at the time concerned the UK) states that reverse engineering: "...may not be used in a way that harms the legitimate interests of the rights holder (for developers) or which conflicts with the normal operation of the program (for users)".

So, the question is what is "the normal operation of the program". And also if the fairness between ordinary users (who want to use the program for what it is and as they buy it) and the initiates (those who know about tricks, cheats and third-party programs and/or use reverse engineering to play) is well respected ?

I know, that some here consider that what the LFS program allows (including with its flaws) is authorized (for cheating). That's not my opinion and it's debatable. But what about unofficial third-party programs that work by reverse engineering? Especially with a multiplayer game?

It's one thing to output values (for damage, temperatures, position of other players in the race, have real-time graphic and video tools etc.) It's another thing to change how "the normal operation of the program".

This is where the reverse engineering process poses a problem. When , and for what purposes, is reverse engineering really essential?

Absolutely gorgeous car.

An impressive transformation for a result close to perfection. Well done, that's wonderful. (a small sound adjustment that saturates a lot, maybe ?).

This makes you want a sportier version for racing (we always want more ). Something like that would be fantastic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOraKXzuWFY

I want too much? Am I dreaming?
In any case, a big thank you for this superb car.

Hi Racon,

I tested your version 100 compatible GT. What I'm about to say surprises me, but I think it's the best. (normally, I get bored quite quickly with "small" cars with suspensions like trouser suspenders ).

Road holding is very healthy. The car does exactly what you want and reacts as expected. It's very pleasant to drive. There is (in my opinion) a very good relationship between handling and engine power. Unlike many small cars from LFS, it stays hooked to the road without excessive wheelspin. The interior and exterior engine sounds are very good.
Congratulation !

Remarks:
Hard braking is always a little strange behind the wheel. But you don't brake much with this kind of car .
It seems that your tachometer is not yet correctly calibrated (red zone).

I'm really looking forward to seeing the sequel.

You work fast That's good.
Without wanting to influence you, and even if this video is very bad, it can, perhaps, help you to direct your research.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41o24WbEaRo

Nice progress! It looks good.
There have been a number of variations of the kit. Some are easier to model. Which do you prefer? The DRM historic 1977?
I sense the connoisseur in you

Cool ! TOCA 2 Touring Cars in LFS !
Reviving the BTCC from 1995 to 2000 would be awesome

Nice project. The physics of LFS stick perfectly well to old cars.
Can we expect a sports version? Group 5?

Quote from johneysvk :

1 - if you mean code of conduct or gentlemen agreements, won't work, because there's nobody to enforce it and game allows for use of button clutch, to accomodate for different input methods. Maybe it could work differently, sure, but that's one for the devs.
2 - and who's gonna check every lap and do that?

Changing the way the clutch works would result in a noncompatible update, i'm pretty sure, so that would also automatically clear the hotlap list, two birds with one stone.
Maybe it will come in the long awaited update with new physics, guess we'll see

But we can't do anything about this, only the devs do.
Again, assuming you didn't already, if it's really such a big issue, feel free to drop them an e-mail, or maybe wait for one of them to reply on this topic.

And thank you very much for your selfless sacrifice of financing my 'little private games between people that know'
You seem to be thinking it's some super evil cheater cabal, which is really not the case.

P.S.: This game's popularity has little to do with attitudes of 1-2 people in a forum thread (my previous posts might have been a bit over the top though, i admit), but rather slow development pace. I know things are done in a certain way, and it's part of what makes LFS so great, but it's just how it is.
Development is not mine or any other users' responsibility and aside from that i see decent amount of online racing, media content, mods etc. generated by the userbase.
So yeah... crying on the wrong grave here.

1. I haven't thought of a deontology, even if I like the idea . I was talking about the game code which can, for example, make shifting penalizing if the accelerator is left fully depressed. This would partly render the effect of the button clutch obsolete (well, I think).

2. A simple algorithm could analyse the files of the replays and eliminate those on which the pedals are not used correctly. Of course, someone has to be prepared to do this

Don't worry, since there's nothing for me online yet (I don't despair), the sacrifice is bearable. But what I meant was that there are people who love this game (and buy it) who are different from you, who don't have the same ideas or the same practices. They don't expect the same things you do. You still have to give them space for the community to evolve and grow. The important thing, what brings us together, is LFS. Nothing forces us to fight.

For the rest, don't take it for yourself. I said "you" in general. You "people who know" and who remain attached to their customs, little habits and little secrets. I know the LFS community is not a cheating community. It's just disappointing, and also discouraging, to see that the WRs are ... rigged

Without resentment. I'm used to dealing with adversity. I have no problem with that. I sometimes search a bit too

EDIT: We all know that nothing will happen to improve the cheating situation right now. It would be totally counterproductive to spend time on this.
If this discussion makes it possible to underline that the next update will have to be accompanied by a kind of Reset, it is already good.
If the ambition is to cast a wider net than in the existing community, this seems essential. That doesn't mean burying 20 years of history. But to start again on a virgin and healthy base, if possible less permissive.

Last edited by Avraham Vandezwin, Sun 16 Apr 2023, 08:22. Reason : Last clarification

Quote from johneysvk :

The answer is simply because it's allowed/made possible by the game.
As long as you're not using external tools to create shift macros and shit, it's ok i see it, the playing field is level for everyone.

I don't know why Avraham cares so much about 'cheat and fake VRs' It has no effect on him personally since by his own admission he doesn't race or hotlap online and people that do are already aware and accounting for this in running the racing events.

But if alongside paragraphs of loosely associated monologues there are ideas how to improve the situation, go and contact the devs, i believe some people tried in the past already.

Sometimes Avraham is interested in different matters than those that have a direct effect on his life. How much Avraham does it take to buy LFS without playing online to finance your little private games between "people who know" ?

For the solutions, I have given them.
1- act by code.
2- Clean manually.

P.S: If you ever want this game to become massively popular again and be played online again, you need to reconsider your attitudes.

Quote from Gutholz :

In WR it seems more accepted. Not sure why that is...

It's the group effect. Everyone allows themselves small transgressions because the others do too. Over time, this becomes normal. On the one hand, there are the "people who know" and who play with each other with their rigged rules and the others who go elsewhere...
we find ourselves in a ghetto of insiders, among "people who know". And we wonder why there are only 300 people (always the same) per day on the servers. While we have in our hands one of the best games in the world. "Small" causes sometimes have big effects.
Which new player will take the time to understand that WR and online practices are different?

Quote from Gutholz :

It is absolutely possible to shift a real car or LFS car at full throttle, with normal analog axis clutch pedal.
Obviously it puts greater wear on the material but it is possible.
Many driving school cars have to endure that every day when new drivers learn to shift or to get moving at an incline.

You are right. In real life, you can butcher the mechanical until it break. But you won't get any benefit from doing so, because you'll still go slower doing it than using it normally. Also in LFS, if you're playing normally (without cheating) and you shift into gear with the accelerator pedal on the floor, you're wasting time. In replays of WRs you go faster. Here is the problem.

Quote from johneysvk :

idk why you keep writing these **** essays

If you don't want me to answer you, ignore me.
I refer you to my message of April 13, 2023, 12:43 (which you have read) I asked a question, I got my answer. That's all.

No need to come back to me with fallacious statements intended to justify cheating. You have your point of view, I have mine. I think our points of view are irreconcilable. Especially if you don't bother to read me (and no one is forcing you to).

Quote from R-to :

If you drive in real life h-pattern manual transmission a car what has syncronized gearbox what uses manual clutch you cannot downshift example 5 gear, gear by gear 4,3 to 2 gear instant when racing hard without useing clutch so because it's possible in live for speed that is not realistic and when racers know about that they dont have to use clutch they only use the throttle blib and change the gears because it's easyer so in my opinion that is cheating if you cannot do that in real life.

Your comment is quite relevant. That's what I meant by "non-use of a control command".
Thank you for allowing me to clarify it again (and Johneysvk, sorry if that wasn't clear .)

In LFS, as in real life, with H-gearbox the clutch must be used, the throttle should be released to up shift etc.
The code could (should?) sanction this. If the code does not. These ways of driving should be considered cheating.

This is also my opinion (with all the nuances adapted to video game issues, of course )

Quote from johneysvk :

the accelerator control has nothing to do with, it's about using the clutch with a fast acting button.
And it's not about deceiving anybody, but rather getting a few hundreths to tenths of laptime.
People who know will spot it pretty quickly.

Not sure what you mean by non-use of a control command, those laps mentioned above definitely use the clutch, albeit in a manner debated above. On topic of being 'fake' this has been discussed before with people proposing some possible solutions, yet nothing happened so far.
For me as long as you're not using any 3rd party software and solely provisions provided by the game, it's fine.It's exactly the same as real life racing pushing all the gray areas they can to get an advantage.

FYI: button clutch is banned on pretty much any online racing server.

Your explanations and your point of view as a connoisseur are crystal clear .

From my layman's point of view, the accelerator pedal has everything to do in that:

The quick clutch cheat enables the always fully depressed accelerator pedal cheat. It is one of the purposes of the clutch cheat to allow the acceleration to be kept at full power, even during upshifts.

Even if the gain from this cheat were nil, it would still be a cheat, in the sense that it is a completely abnormal way of driving.

I agree. "People who know" are not deceived because they also know and use this cheat.

But the laymen (potential new players) are deceived. Because they first believe that these world records are made with an H-gearbox and normal clutch, as presented. And they find afterwards, by viewing the replay, that it is faked.

New players ignore and don't care that the gain from cheats is minimal. A cheat is a cheat. The cheat of the quick clutch is hardly noticeable for the neophyte. But the cheating of full acceleration when changing gears is seen as the nose in the middle of the face. This is abnormal behaviour, and it is detrimental to the image of a supposedly realistic game.

How many new masochistic gamers are going to dive into a sensibly realistic sim, with 20 years of history and a steep learning curve, if they see that everything is skewed by little gimmicks or big cheating? And that their only way to compete with "People who know" is to learn to cheat?

I don't know what you mean by gray areas in the world of real racing. I certainly do not have your knowledge, but do not see anything comparable.

In the world of real racing, there is technology and rules. It happens that the two are still not quite in phase or that the rules are voluntarily transgressed and there, it is sanction (as, for example, for Toyota in 1995).

But, in the world of racing, no one drives by violating the physical laws that govern mechanics. Maybe because it's impossible? But it is a fact.

Comparisons between what is possible in real life and in the game have their limits and pitfalls. These wacky comparisons also produce sweet mirages.
Of course, in real life, you can shift gears without a clutch. So what ?
You can shift to a clutchless gear only at a specific engine speed that does not correspond to racing or lap record conditions. This childish pretext does not justify abnormal behaviour in the race.

For me, virtual driving should be believable enough to match real driving as much as possible. There is the limit. Switching gears without a lever with your foot on an H-gearbox is not credible. It's just ridiculous. The fact that all "People who know" do it doesn't help matters.

I don't find the fender mirrors very attractive, but it's very practical for visibility

If you could do that, that would be really cool , especially for the 500 !

Fantastic news.

I hope that the mirrors of the GTR-compatible 500 will be placed as on the reference images.

Quote from gu3st :

Some concessions need to be made for hardware limitations.

I understand what you are saying and it is a fascinating subject. But what I'm talking about is much more trivial.

This is to sanction the non-use of a control command, regardless of the equipment used.

Currently the code knows if I'm overheating my clutch. If I use pedals on axis and I go up a gear with the accelerator pedal pressed, my gearbox does not explode (which is a shame). But I quickly understand that I have no interest in doing so, because I'm wasting time.

If I use the automatic clutch, the code decides the shift time.

On the other hand, if I use an on/off button for the accelerator (or any other trick) and I deliberately leave it pressed when shifting up a gear, I am faster. It is a deliberately abnormal way of driving intended to deceive people. Especially if I claim to drive an H-speed gearbox.

There is no reason for the code not to be able to detect the non-use of a control command. And if the code doesn't, it's easy to see it and identify fake world records.

(don't take it the wrong way) There is a difference between "concessions" and tacit connivance.

Footnote : I was just asking a question to improve my knowledge, on a topic about cheating. I got my answer. I didn't want to start a controversy or a witch hunt. For me, it's been a long time since I solved the problem. I don't play online. I don't post my times. LFS is my favourite game, I don't play (anymore) anything else. But if I had to start a career online, as i speak, i would choose another game, that's for sure. Fortunately, the new physics will finally sweep away all that and we will finally start again on new and healthier foundations (at least I hope).

Quote from Sobis :

No lift upshifting is an easy way to gain a bit of time (in an H pattern) and probably most if not all WRs do that. Hurts the clutch so not widely used in racing (at least not in all upshifts) but considering anyone can use it, I wouldn't call it cheating. Especially that you can do it in real life as well, though that's a bit more expensive there

I'm no expert, but I'm not going to try it on my real car. I don't think the gearbox would appreciate a forced shift with the accelerator pedal on the floor. As for the clutch...

It's weird to want realism in a car simulation and to drive so unrealistically. Just to make a fake VR.

What I still don't understand is why it's not possible (or why I failed?) to do this with a normal setup. Should a button be used instead of the accelerator pedal? That's it ? It would take a special category of VRs with the magic button.

Quote from fatalunfair :

Macro that presses the clutch pedal faster than lightning.

E: Ok those laps you mentioned specificly just use button clutch at 10.00 button control rate, not quite as fast as macro but faster than autoclutch and most people who kick the clutch.

THANK YOU . I understand now (I drive with the clutch pedal with basic G25/G27 hardware).

Am I to understand that this is some kind of...cheating? Or not ?

Edit: clarification
I don't mention some laps specifically. I often drive the FZR. So I looked at some of the FZR WRs. The shorter tracks, but others too. I noticed that the accelerator pedal was released when decelerating and not when upshifting. I haven't checked all of the WRs but I imagine everyone does the same thing with all cars.It's just weird.

Last edited by Avraham Vandezwin, Wed 12 Apr 2023, 09:53.

Quote from johneysvk :

care to provide some examples?

Take an original car with an H-gearbox (and nothing else). For example, the FZR.
Display the records with a steering wheel and without an auto clutch. In order not to waste time, watch the replays of the world records on short tracks (SO classic, RO handling etc.)
You will hear that the accelerator pedal remains fully pressed when changing up gears. If you display the pedals, you will see it.
I thought it was a game glitch (maybe that's it?) so I tried to do it and couldn't. Not the same sound. Not the same efficiency.
This is the reason for my question. What's the trick?

What is the cheat (the trick, the setting, the exploitation of the game's faults, it's the same) that allows you to upshift on an H box without decelerating? As seen on WR replay's ?

I specify that I'm not interested in learning how to do it, it's just for my general knowledge.
Thanks

I changed the setup as you said and adapted my steering wheel settings. It's better. But the direction remains strangely “notched”. I will try to improve that. Thanks for your reply .

Hi Racon,
I tried this car again last night and couldn't drive it with the G27
The steering wheel slams too hard when braking. I don't remember that it did with the G25, or not as strong.
This is the only car in the game that I have this problem with my settings, and the steering wheel force is not set very hard.
Do you have a solution?
Thanks

A real pro job with this PSD file. Too few mods have good working skin models and lods.
It's cool that an upcoming scheduled event motivated you to finalize your skin templates.

Thanks again for this great car.